B2B Tech Talk with Ingram Micro
B2B Tech Talk with Ingram Micro

Episode · 2 weeks ago

How to Bring Fun Back to Work With IBM and Ingram Micro

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Burnout is a very real thing in today’s work environment. Employees are overworked, stressed and mentally fatigued.

It’s time to shake things up.

In today’s episode, we’re talking about bringing fun back to the workplace.

Shelby Skrhak welcomes John Cohn , IBM Fellow, to the show to talk about:

- The symptoms of mental fatigue

- Some things IBM does to spark fun

- Why embracing a sense of play makes a difference

Learn more at imaginenext.ingrammicro.com/ibm

To join the discussion, follow us on Twitter @IngramTechSol #B2BTechTalk

Listen to this episode and more like it by subscribing to B2B Tech Talk on Spotify , Apple Podcasts , or Stitcher . Or, tune in on our website. 

...you're listening to B. B. Tech talkwith ingram Micro the place to learn about new technology and technologicaladvances before they become mainstream. This podcast is sponsored by IBM. IBMis a leading hybrid, multi cloud solutions company accelerating thecreation development and manufacturing of the industry's most advancedinformation technology for companies around the world. Let's get into it.Welcome to B to B tech talk with ingram Micro. I'm your host, Shelby skirt talkand my guest today is john cone IBM fellow john welcome. Oh thanks. Somaybe I'm super excited to be here. Well, excellent. I mean, you know todaywe are talking about bringing a little fun back to work with IBM and ingramMicro. So it goes without saying that people are tired, there's they'restressed. So um as an IBM fellow, what have you seen in your own environment?I mean what are some of those symptoms of this mental fatigue I think we'reall feeling? I think people are kind of getting to a point where they'reliterally just phoning it in. You know when you can't see you can't hang out,drink beer, coffee, whatever, smell whatever you start to kind of get alittle bit distant from your work and you get distant from the people and Ithink that's uh I see it, not just in my company, I see it everywhere andactually, you know my group really spends a lot of time trying to come upwith creative new ways to try to connect and the problem is there's newways become the old ways after a year and a half. So it's constant, constantinnovation, but I do feel that everyone's uh I think the part of itthat was so tough is that it felt like everything was getting back to normaland then it didn't, it was kind of snatched back. Everybody knows feelingthat you're right, that the new ways of...

...working soon became the old ways. They,you know, the innovative ways to kind of perk people up, you know, stoppedworking, kind of lost their efficacy. So how do you combat this uh thismental fatigue? And what are some ways that that IBM manages to have fun? Well, now, I think, you know, thatcomes at very different levels. I think every individual needs to find ways ofhaving fun. And I talk about that, I think my group, my group at, I'm at theMIT IBM Watson ai lab and we're half mitt, half IBM and it's like 40 of usand about 26 of them are super young, super brilliant phds, half my age,twice as smart and at least for me just listening to them is kind ofencouraging and exciting. And since they all have interesting backstories.So what we ended up doing is spending more time just kind of rambling off,we'll be on topic for a while and then end up in some weird way having deeperpersonal conversations that you might just sort of casually walking throughthe hall. So that's one thing my group is doing and we, we've come up with allsorts of things like we have video lunches and you know, we found who knewthat that japanese guy was like this incredible gourmet sushi chef, you know,we put on display and it made me really up my game in terms of food prep andplating and things like that. But I never really thought of, I thinkpersonally I can say that what I've done is I've started to misbehave alittle bit more. I mean it is the case that you know, when you're no one'slooking and you can turn the camera off, you can do whatever you want. Well,I've used it to try to teach myself a little bit, some new code languages andsome new Ai models and while I don't want to, you don't think it's a goodpractice to necessarily multitask the bright side is that I've learned somecool new stuff that I wouldn't have ever had the time to do, but just don'ttell anyone please. I think it's a...

...company. It's very interesting as alarge company, like both of us are ingram and an IBM, you end up one thingthat's kind of nice is is you work with another group, you get to hear what'sworking for them And you know, and I have had let's see at last count, Ithink I've given 30 to kind of feel good talks. two groups around IBM whoare kind of looking to fill that afternoon slot on friday where peopleare just kind of burned out and what's been really motivating. I've been doinga lot of speaking on the importance of play, which is something that's very,very important to me. And what's funny is that meeting all these other groupsand kind of hearing their stories and what they're doing, but especially kindof being the person who's trying to cheer them up is actually cheers me up.You know, it kind of makes me sort of dig a little bit deeper. So I thinksomething about that sort of helping others, helps yourself. So that's beensort of my medicine for particularly for those late, late week, late fridayafternoon kind of meetings definitely, Well, I definitely want to hear moreabout this uh, this importance of play, but I want to touch on a few thingsthat you mentioned when everybody is having to videoconference, you do losethat, that kind of spur the moment conversation. I mean, you can't justcall someone up randomly on zoom and and really kind of get into a verypersonal and meaningful conversation distance, certainly hinders that, soyou're saying that in various meetings kind of allow the group to get a littlebit off task in terms of talking about themselves and engaging in conversation,I guess giving permission to have these deeper conversations. So you get toreally know each other on another level, right? Yeah, It's been it's been reallystrange as I think because we have this kind of collective exhaustion might betoo strong word. But this kind of, you know, collective kind of experiencethat when somebody goes with something,...

...you know, like travel or an issue withtheir family or something like that, everybody is just so present. It wasjust something fresh, fresh meat, you know, and it's kind of interestingbecause again, you know, if you were in person, a conversation that's sort ofintimate like that, you know, you might not have had it, you know, in a biggroup, you might talk to one or two people, but I think that there'sactually a little bit of safety and protection, you know, when you're inthe video conference or something like that and you know, you just don't feellike you're really there. I found that people are remarkably available. I mean,really, I am thinking about the last three conversations that I've had forthis week yesterday. They all ended up on a deeply personal thing and oftentimes, you know, it's kind of very meta we're talking about. You know, wellthis kind of sucks now and what you know, sort of the conversation thatwe're having not so specifically, you know, like what are you doing to staysaying, but somebody will talk about some crazy thing that they're doing andseveral times in the last couple of weeks, I found myself going, you know,way over half an hour, hour over because you get into this deep personalthread and again, I don't think that are busy face to face lives actuallyoffer that chance so much. And so it's been that's that's been kind of a nicelittle benefit that I didn't expect. And honestly, I think it it's somethingI'm feeling more with this sort of longer term kind of thing becausepeople are sort of more vulnerable than even in the middle of theunpleasantness, kind of interesting, definitely. Well, it brings to mind thephrase that it's okay to not be okay and admitting that vulnerability isvital to connecting. So I guess probably I would say for our listeners,you know, can we all just give ourselves permission to to not be okayto admit you're not okay, that, you...

...know, sometimes it gets isolating andkinda lonely and you feel maybe a little emotionally disconnected fromfrom your company and your co workers or even your job itself. So, I imaginethat that's where giving permission and speaking about the importance of playkind of comes into into focus, right? Yeah, it's kind of fun, you know, whileyou're talking about, I'm thinking about it, it doesn't always go dark,you know, even though everyone's vulnerable and you're, even thougheveryone is feeling it like that, it's not that everybody wants to kind of,you know wallow in that they're like, well, you know, I'm teaching myself, Iwas talking to one of my friends, I'm teaching myself Yiddish, I was likewhat? You know, teaching yourself a dead language, you know, can't you dothat? But what happens is that I think that this space, you know, this makes ahuge amount of space in our lives, we're not traveling, you know, we'vegot all this kind of down time and I think sometimes people are sharing thecrazy stuff they're doing to not go crazy and so it's actually there's kindof a dark humor to it, you know, it's not necessarily always darkoccasionally someone will say, well go on, especially in the early days wherepeople had family members are themselves who are getting sick and youreally have to go there, but I would say most of the conversation that maybeit's because the people that I end up interacting with its more kind of whatthe heck, you know, and they kind of go off into something and when I thinkabout that sort of playful twist is one of the great things when I was talkingto the ingram people is they really have a very playful culture and what Iwas they're talking about is my history of how play has kind of been the mostimportant thing to me, even when it was the hardest. So it's really exactlythat message when I think about Struggles in my own life given tragedyour son passed away in 2006 and looking back, I mean I know it sounds kind ofstrange out of context, but the thing...

...that kind of made it made life makessense to me involved play and involves sharing my passions with geekiness ofbeing a kind of crazy looking, mad scientist person, the more I kind ofleaned into that and shared it the better I felt the more crazy things Ibuilt, the more stuff I blew up in somewhat safe ways. The more that allof a sudden that, that that was it was life affirming and that's what I neededand I think people are all kind of digging into that is like, you know,they're kind of coming up with crazy things to do, learning new sports,learning new instruments, everybody is trying to do it and I think, I thinkyou said something really interesting, I think we're the current covidenvironment is kind of like the ultimate excuse. So if you AM I allowedto say suck, if you fail, if you're suboptimal, nobody cares. It's theperfect excuse and having a perfect excuse is a great enabler for peoplebecause we have such a fear of failure, we have such fear of judgment and at apoint where like, you know, I don't know that I've worn pants for 18 months,I'm completely dressed but you know, all of a sudden we, we cut ourselves alittle slack, everybody has stories like that, you know, So tell us tell usabout how you discovered that play was an answer. Like I guess take us fromthe point where you're grieving and you discovered that that do something likehelps. Yeah, it's interesting because I had a running start in a good way. Soit wasn't just like that moment where I, and it turned out, you know, itactually, I was quite a serious young man, you know, I'm a nerd. I really am.You know, I was the kid who was kind of sitting there in front of the teacherraising his hand and not much in the way social graces until after going toschool etc. My company issued me like the perfect wife, we've been togetherfor 39 years and when we started making...

...kids kids are your ultimate audience.And while it wasn't like kind of a football guy or anything like that,they, I was a nerd and we would go make things and take things apart and blowthings up. I'm told I'm not supposed to talk about blowing things up anymore.But that's really part of being a day. And so I, the more I did that, the moreI realized that especially because nature made me look like a wack job,kind of crazy scientists, the more I leaned into that, the more fun I hadand I spent time with my kids doing that with their friends with schoolsand then I started kind of traveling around and um ironically while I wasworking and this kind of had a little hindsight in it, but part of the foralmost a decade I worked on video game processors because our company IBM hadthis incredible silicon technology that was for making supercomputers etcetera.And At the time, you know the PlayStation three and xbox 3 60Nintendo wii those were supercomputers that you put under a christmas tree. Sothose companies came to us, we worked on those and it really was kind of coolbecause one at a metal level, the fact that something you did for play waslike driving technology like that, but it also is incredibly relevant kids andadults, you know, if if somebody came up to a party, usually an electricalengineer, you know, you say, they say, what do you do, you say I'm anelectrical engineer and they say where's the punch? You know, and theykind, but when you say I make video games, you know, they are video andprocess, it was definitely don't about include, but at least it kept me fromgetting kicked out. So I was in the middle of all that and when our son Sampassed in an accident 2006, I was already doing a lot of work in uhespecially in schools and and then at the time it was even the beginning ofsort of social media like my space and things like that and so I kind of had arunning start and when you don't know...

...what to do. I mean that's a meta topicfor like the pandemic where you just don't have a choice. I found I startedmaking bigger projects with people like I built, it was funny, I I belonged toa uh alumni club, I've been at MIT, you know, a rabid alum I guess I would sayfor 44 years and I helped create vomit, Vermont's on mitt club and, and groupcame and asked us to build a tall robotic pumpkin for scaring Children.And it was at that time where I was like, well that seems like a good useof an engineering education. So I started doing that with a group ofpeople with a bunch of kids helping me and then I just started getting moreand more of those projects, it's the kind of thing as you start to lean intosomething, people see it and they go, hey, I got something for you to build.And I built crazy big robotic things for burning man and stuff like that.And the more I did it, the more I realized it wasn't actually building,it wasn't the thing, it was the process of doing it with people sharing thatgeekiness and the more I did that, that's just the more more fun and in mycase the more healing I did, it was just phenomenal and the crazier it was,the more over the top, it was, the more people really liked it, especiallybecause you could sneak in a little bit of science, you sneak in a little bitof learning and technology into that. So that's, you know, it was funnybecause it was at a time where I was really trying to, you know, sort thingsout and it is interesting how when you're manifesting that out in theworld, whatever it is, whatever your passion is, if you really put it outthere, just somehow, it all kind of comes back to you and that somehow Iended up on a reality show on Discovery, about that, about doing weird stufflike that. I was called The Colony and...

...it was on Discovery Channel and it wasso stupid, but it was great. It was great. But it it just kept multiplying.And what was really interesting Shelby is that, you know, during this timewhere I was kind of really at a existential crisis, I mean, I can't putstrong enough words on it. I was getting this kind of, you know, greatjoy and it seemed like such a conflict, you know, and uh, you know, and what Iwas worried that, oh my God, you know, what's this going to do to my career? Iwas already very senior, you know, the funny thing is more of that crazy stuffI did, the better my day job went because I was excited. It was anicebreaker for my teams, you know, that people would go build stuff together.It was great with clients because it doesn't matter how bad the meeting is.You know, when you, you pull up the video of you with a flamethrower, itkind of breaks the ice and so it's just been a really kind of an interestingthing and what I found is it's, that's my story, but I find a lot of peoplewho have those kind of passions, those side passions, those things that weresort of culturing during these were dark times are the thing that actuallymakes that human connection that makes us work better as teams, it helps ussell stuff, it helps us learn stuff, I don't know. Well that's, that's fascinating. So tothink that nurturing your, your hobbies and your passions that it can help youin your day job. So in your case, you know, you were able to show anotherside of you, you know, if uh, if there was ever lacking for a conversationtopic, you know, that was the instant connector, right? Yeah, it wasinteresting because it wasn't something that I was doing for that reason, itwasn't that I was trying to do it so that I'd have something to talk aboutmy gosh, you know, there's never a bad time to talk about flamethrowers, youknow, it always fits in, try it direct. I kind of think about it coming back towhat we were just talking about before...

...is what people are doing it kind ofthis, you know, month 18 of this whole thing is it sort of is pulling at ourlittle kind of collective mischief, everybody's trying to get away with alittle bit of something and I think that's sort of playfulness, you know,that's where these stories are coming out now, I'm hearing different storiesabout people's crazy hobbies that they're building up. A friend of mineis learning swing dancing, like by yourself, okay, you know, it's greatthough and everybody is kind of, I guess in this environment to you, noone's judging because again, because we have this shared kind of weirdexperience, nobody's going to say, well that's stupid, you know, so I I kind ofthink that it's it's kind of tugging on our sort of playfulness and mischiefmaking mischief is a big motivator to actually, because you know, when I canturn off the camera, you know, nobody can tell if I'm working on somethingelse. Well that's a perfect opportunity to goof off, you know, we learnsomething else, I don't know, I guess kind of a lack of adult supervision isreally good for people mischief as a motivator. I like that just enough,just enough, yeah, so when then you started sharing, you know, your ownstory, how play brought you from unspeakable tragedy to a high pointthen you started to hear other stories of similar you know things and it couldbe, you know, any any number of life situations that a hobby or a passioncan help you. You know, give you a little bit of a momentary peace or someof those other examples. I'm curious means, swing dancing, Yiddish. Whatelse? Let's see a bunch of musical instruments, weird travel, believe itor not. You know, some people I know three people that I've talked torecently including a close colleague who just sold all their stuff andbought in his case a motorcycle and...

...traveled all over the country withoutmissing a meeting. As a matter of fact, I only found out halfway through thathe was doing that and it was just like, well a lot of people's relationshipshave changed. He was coming out of relationship, he didn't have to be,there had no attachments. And so he just used this as an opportunity tokind of go explore the world without telling anybody. We didn't know, I meanyou don't know where somebody is, you know, and it was really kind ofinteresting. Another colleague at a friend of mine's company did the samething. You know, he's just totally a nomad. He introduced himself as a nomadand I said, yeah, I like travel to and he goes, no, I'm a nomad, what do youmean? He goes, I don't have a house and he was just couchsurfing high endcouchsurfing from what I can tell, But it was, it was just a crazy, like, youknow, the odyssey, It was like this crazy adventure where he just sort oftook that pleasure of traveling and then kind of went out in the world.I've met a lot of people from a volunteering standpoint. I think by theway, the kind of method here too is that when you are feeling down, I thinkI said this about like giving those pep talks to people like I'm like, you know,I'm feeling kind of down, giving a pep talk is a good way to get yourself up.You know, last year I did a lot of work with people around robotics projects.Uh there's these robotics competitions, volunteering around things like firstrobotics. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, It's different levels.It's, you know, it's like for elementary school kid, middle schoolkids, high school kids, really fun. But last year we got involved in it beforewe knew that Covid was happening and then for the whole year we ended upcoming together as a group. I live in a state of Vermont very small, widespreadkind of place, but we ended up helping each other with these learning to makethese giant robots kind of using zoom...

...and stuff like that and I found thatthat was just such a great way. You know, it was new skills for me, it wasnew skills for them, new people. I think that's another interesting thingis it can be interesting. One of the discoveries I have of this kind ofvirtual culture. At first I thought well you know I really love people andI love to be in the same room and drink beer or wine whatever you do and kindof was of the opinion that there's nothing good about virtual stuff. Wellwhat's interesting is that so many other things that you couldn'tparticipate in now you can now we have events and we have speakers that cancome in from any place in the world which would never have been the case inthe old days. My wife and I are very involved in Local politics. We live ina town of 600 people that's a suburb of the town of 4000 people. So the bigcity the 4000 you know would I go and spend three hours in a in a selectboard meeting because I had well now it's just it's like better than realityTV to watch people throw food at each other and stuff. It's just some thingsare actually more participatory and you kind of bring allows people whowouldn't otherwise meet. That's what my my vector, there was all these people Imet with robotics. I would never have met these people, we didn't have thiscommon interest and now this sort of everyone is used to these sort of videoscreens anyway definitely really interesting to wonder how, so when,when this is all over, when we get back to quote normal, I think that we willactually have taken some lessons about how to mix, you know, people who arenear to, near each other to people who are further away, interesting. I don'tthink it's going to disappear. It's never gonna be like it used to be andthat's why I think that's that's a great yeah, exactly. I mean thedistributed workforce versus centralized workforce, you know, thingsare once we get back into the office, I...

...think we've realized the From anemployee standpoint, the bosses have realized, Hey, I can be productive athome. I don't have to be in the office five days a week, 8-8 hours a day. Butthere's more that we've taken away from that. Right? Yeah. And I think kind ofgoing back to this, how did you quote mischief is method? You know, one ofthe things that's interesting is that I think this virtual, at least in mygroup technically we have another plate way to say and kicked. But we have done,we have optimist, well we have actually from an output, we have done very wellin terms of the technical output in the collaborations because a lot of what wedo is sort of concentrating during its screens, programming and things likethat. And so we've actually not, it hasn't, it hasn't taken away anything,but I think that it's allowed, as you said, it's allowed the boss or theboss's boss's boss's boss's boss to say, well, you know, if I can't watch thesepeople all the time, I guess things don't fall apart. You know, if we canjust keep keep enough of a guidance on there, we can kind of relax our grip.And I think that notion of slack cutting people some slack makes way forinnovations, makes way for play, makes way for mischief. Whereas if you'retrying to lock everything down and try to kind of micro manage everything, wehave a belief system that the moment that we turn away from, you know, fromsomething, it'll fall apart. This is actually evidence to the opposite,right? And I think that that gives people a sense of leniency that willallow if people use the time, will allow them to be more innovative andmore productive. It's kind of weird though, but I do what I think is we'regoing to find is a balance, you know, we're going to get together for thethings that we really need to get together just for the human, you know,in latin America, they always call it calor humano human heat, you need tocome together kind of white board a little bit and stuff like that, butthen you can go away and get your work done and I think people are, I thinkthat's going to persist and I think the...

...other thing that I realized is I'vespent my, I've been at my job at IBM for 40 years, believe it or not. Andbetween my late father in law and my wife, 84 years for idea. And I thinkabout, you know, that involved traveling to 80 countries and I'mthinking I have my own private ozone hole. You know, when I look at whatthat cost me, what it cost me in sleep and stuff like that and you know,sitting up in airplane chairs. But when I think about from the world from aclimate standpoint, God, you know, if we could get away as much as I, I washappy to travel sometimes I realize now, I don't know, we don't need to hop onairplanes all the time. And I hope we get to sometimes because it's fun, butnot as much as any of us did. And I think that's going to be better for theworld definitely. Well, uh, you know, as we're, as we're looking at maybeinferring or predicting a little bit of what the future is going to look likeis to start to wrap up this episode, I want to hear more of your takes aboutwhat's going to happen in the next year. Typically we always ask our guestswhere do you see technology going in the next year, but technology and playand this idea as of play as an innovator. Where do you see that going?Let's see play as an innovator boy. I got a couple of vectors on that onething. Well, I can tell you, let me tell you more in the general and I'lltell you in a personal way, I think what's actually happened, you know,this is uh this kind of great stay at home is happening at a time where sometechnologies particular ai is becoming so democratized through the technicalgenerosity of companies like ours or google or facebook or Uber even who areputting together all these great packages and now you can use theworld's best Ai software for free. You...

...can actually, now there's many goodreasons you might want to go pay somebody to help you with that becauseit does take a lot to scale it. But one of the things that I know that I didand a lot of my colleagues didn't, High school kids, I know you're doing it,you know, it's almost a full time job to try to keep up with the innovationsthat are out in the open open space. I think what's going to start happeningis a combination of the sort of 18 months of being able to sort of studyeverybody becoming a little bit more fluent with those new technologies andkind of growing awareness of you look on the sort of world needs, you know,if you look at it, obviously climate, you look at social justice. I'm a bigoptimist when it comes to that. I think you're going to see kind of a flood ofpeople working using these amazing technical skills that they've been ableto hone on kind of world issues. And I don't mean that in a necessarily dobetter way. I think you'll also find people using those technologies tocreate exciting new startups. You know, I think that there's going to be kindof a burst of energy that came out of this sort of latency that we werelearning. And I think that there will be kind of a kind of a post stay athome boost intellectual boost. I think that's it. Especially because I thinkpeople are in some weird wake also, even though it's been hard, they're alittle bit recharged. I think that's interesting on a personal point interms of play, I am very interested, I focus a lot on a I I am very interestedin how public perceptions of ai are going to evolve. And I am personallyvery interested in how I think one of the things that we really need to do iswe need to be able to have more nuanced conversations about what technology ingeneral and what I specifically can do, what it should do, what it shouldn't doetcetera, as as it exists now as it involves. And one of the things that Ifind is that it's people don't have on...

...any topic, especially including thatone. They don't have very nuanced conversations. You have a sort of pointof view and you try to support that point of view with listening to thenews that agrees with your point of view, etcetera. Well, I have mysubversive ideas to try to get the public more interested into what a Ican do and what it can't do and what it should do and what it shouldn't do. Andthe best vector I know for communicating anything is playfulness.So I've been spending a lot of time trying to I've been working with somevery, very talented kids. My wife says, don't call them kids, but there, youknow, 13 year old, 14 year old, 15 year old who are ai geniuses on trying tomake tools for showing how Ai works in the hopes and the expectation more thanhopes because I see it working that People will lean into it, the studentswill lean into it, we'll understand it more. It's not necessarily trying toconvince them that it's 100% great what, but having them interested in howthings work, whether you're going to be a computer scientist or you're justgoing to be a user of Ai which includes everybody that if you start tounderstand this start to be curious about it, start to lean into it. Thebest way to do that is to make something that's compelling and fun. SoI've been making like, you know, kind of fun here, I can I share. I'll shareuh if you go and look at IBM dot biz slash very men, vis and victor E R E MI N. So it's IBM dot biz slash very man. My friend bob and I actually createdthat it's a musical instrument for making somewhat musical, beautifulmusic, but it's using ai to kind of track your movements and allows you toplay music on it, on your phone or your tablet or computer. And the source codeis there. And we have some curriculum, we've actually built around it andwe're starting to use it with high school students just and it's a smallway of doing it, but to show again, that's something that is playful andcompelling is also interesting and...

...topical. Getting students didn't, I'msupposed to not use the word kids, what word can I use? Proto adults, gettingthem, getting them interested in this is a fantastic vector for actuallygetting, you know, their parents and interested in it, getting theirteachers interested in it. And, you know, in some ways my kind of plan forworld domination is to get enough people technically interested incompelled that they use their technical skills to help solve all the world'sproblems. I know that that's way, way that's super, super optimistic, buteven if it's just sort of nudges things in the right direction. I feel like I'mdoing the right thing and I'll tell you what you get a lot more interest out ofgoofing around than you do and lecturing people. Exactly, Exactly.Well, it has been a fascinating conversation, john I, I reallyappreciate all the insight today. Thank you so much for joining me. Oh, it'sbeen so fun, shall we? I'm gonna go play well. Thank you listeners fortuning in and subscribing to be, to be tech talk with ingram Micro. If youliked this episode or have a question, please join the discussion on twitterwith the hashtag B two B tech talk. Until next time I'm Shelby scare hawk.You've been listening to B to B Tech talk with ingram micro hosted by Kerryroberts. This episode was sponsored by IBM BTB Tech Talk is a joint productionwith sweet fish Media and Anger Micro. To not miss an episode. Subscribe todayto your favorite podcast platform. Uh huh.

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